nitrogen

[dci120matt]

hello all, i had to replace one of my rear tyres last week as i got a screw through the side wall and when i was waiting in the waiting room i saw a poster advertising nitrogen instead of air in your tyres, so i asked the chap about it and he gave me a leaflet, it said that the benefits of nitrogen instead of normal air is, better road holding and handling, up to 25% increase in tyre life, up to 5% reduction in fuel consumption and no oxidation of wheels, any way it was only £6 to do all 4 wheels so i had it done, but a few days ago i went down to falmouth to my mates wedding and on the motorway the car felt awful the steering just does not feel right, like its really light and we were coming down a steep hill going into a left hand bend at the bottom and i had no grip at all, i was actually scared! has anybody else had nitrogen put in there tyres instead of normal air and what do you think about it as i am really considering putting normal air back in. any way on a positive note, has anybody tried forte injector cleaner in there car? it is for trade use only so you cant go down to your local halfrauds and get it but i got some off my mate whos dad owns a garage and i put some in my car before my long trip down to cornwall, and it has transformed my car, the car runs so much smoother and overtaking is awesome. i would strongly recommend it to anybody, i dont know how much it is as he did me a deal as i had the petrol version as well to put in the enemys car and her car feels better as well.

[Mattj]

i know everyone speaks highly of the forte air con cleaner - they do sell some of their products on ebay so will keep a look out

[louiserd]

They saw you coming. The N2 however is not the cause of your problem, your tyres or car are at fault.

[dci120matt]

to be honest i have not drove on the motorway since i had my two fronts replaced just before christmas, so i suppose i would not really know how they would drive, but i did not have the standard michelin pilot primacys fitted on the front as they only had one in stock so i had the primacy hp's put on but even though they are £20 a tyre cheaper at £90 i still would expect them to be a really good tyre surely?

[vijay488]

Well, I tried the nitrogen, and was astonished at the outcome.
everything they said would happen, didn't.
The handling was worse on corners, and i had no 'feel' from the steering.
I was running stock Contis, so I know it wasn't the tyres.

I kept it for about a week, then went back to normal air.

[Gav]

"normal" air is ~78% nitrogen, so there is little difference if you fill with 100%. I'd expect that handling differences could be attributable to tyre pressure differences...

[GTDave]

I cant imagine the gases inside a tyre will affect your grip or performance etc... The one massive difference Nitrogen has is that as nitrogen molecules are bigger than oxygen molecules, you will not get as much pressure loss through leakage over time... also it means the gas is less fluid so the tyre will not distort or disfigure as easily when cornering etc... this is where it predicts the longer tyre life...

Also as nitrogen is less dense than air, it means that the circular effort required by the engine to move the wheels is less (by a tiny tiny amount) but this would probably be almost un-noticeable as in the grand schemes of what forces are involved...

I would not bother... as I have never heard of tyres being designed with nitrogen use in mind, theyre designed to use air in... so why not stick to what the tyre manufacturers had in mind...

Just my humble opinions haha

[louiserd]

I cant imagine the gases inside a tyre will affect your grip or performance etc... The one massive difference Nitrogen has is that as nitrogen molecules are bigger than oxygen molecules, you will not get as much pressure loss through leakage over time... also it means the gas is less fluid so the tyre will not distort or disfigure as easily when cornering etc... this is where it predicts the longer tyre life...

Also as nitrogen is less dense than air, it means that the circular effort required by the engine to move the wheels is less (by a tiny tiny amount) but this would probably be almost un-noticeable as in the grand schemes of what forces are involved...

I would not bother... as I have never heard of tyres being designed with nitrogen use in mind, theyre designed to use air in... so why not stick to what the tyre manufacturers had in mind...

Just my humble opinions haha

You have got to be kidding me.

Nitrogen molecules are bigger therefore less pressure loss?
1) It's nothing to do with molecule sizes. Rate of permation of "air" and nitrogen through a tyre wall will be very similar in the given conditions. Rate of loss through the valve will be very similar in the given conditions. Any loss will be macro effects and be regardless of molecule size. Regardless of all this however, it's not molecule sizes that matters, more over the whole physical chemistry of it.
2) Both will still escape, so remember if you want to keep the "benefits" you must always top up with N2 each and everytime you check your pressure.
3) Air is vastly N2 anyway.
4) In terms of molecule size, compare a cheese and ham sandwich with thick bread, one with a single layer of lettuce, the other without, that's the difference.

Air now less fluid? Give me strength! I mean seriously, who would write this stuff? That is based upon nothing, just words put together, sorry.

Less dense than air?
PV = nRT, your pressure is fixed, your volume is fixed, R is fixed, T is fixed, so n is fixed, thus mass of the molecules is...fixed. It's a 2 bar pressure, not high pressure, ideal gas law applies. Even if it was 100 bar, the difference would be inmeasurable and would need pressure regulation down to 0.000001 bar to record any differences.

The only measurable benefits of N2 in a tyre are:
Less combustible material in the event of a fire onboard a plane
Less chance of any water vapour in the tyre freezing at high altitude...in a plane.
Less damage to the rim and any metal in the tyre resulting from water vapour in the air...relevant on a tyre being fitted for 10 years +, maybe.
100% knowledge of what is in the tyre and lack of oxidation of rubber at high temperature.

You're talking about genuine fluid mechanics and physical chemistry here, not what a bloke can tell you down at a garage. There may be a very little amount of empiracle evidence suggesting a slower rate of loss, but that is not a reason to use nitrogen since although you can check your tyres half the amount of time, you have to pay each time to get them topped up...! If you check real literature, not marketing, you will see it's a complete waste of time and money.

[dci120matt]

i think i will be going back down the tyre place saturday and get normal air put in as i can really feel a difference and it aint good, or why else i would not have put the post up.

[louiserd]

I assure you, the contents of your tyre (be it air or N2) do not give a difference. Normal things do though, such as pressure etc. Any change you feel for different gases I assure you is ALL in your mind.

You can put air back in yourself, let the tyre down 50% then reinflate, it will be approximately air anyway at that point.

[wanda]

Actually, the tyre runs at a lower temperature, when I was in Namibia it was a big hit as it decreases the chance of a blow out.

But performance.... I am not so sure

[louiserd]

Actually, the tyre runs at a lower temperature, when I was in Namibia it was a big hit as it decreases the chance of a blow out.

But performance.... I am not so sure

It doesn't, sorry, it simply doesn't. There is no difference in the temperatures that air and 95% N2 will run at in a tyre, certainly not measurable, the increase in pressure associated with the rise in temperature is small and equal for all gases at a 2 bar magnitude.

The only heat loss from a tyre within reason is through the tyre to the air or ground, ignoring the latter as it is small, the convective heat transfer from the rubber to the air is the same, regardless of the air in the tyre. The same amount of heat will be generated. All of these results are completely pointless anyway, there simply is no difference between air and N2 used for all intents and purposes.

[wanda]

Actually it does, this is simply because Nitrogen disperses heat quicker than air. Meaning tyres inflated with air run hotter than those inflated with nitrogen.

Nitrogen In Tires (extract from https://ezinearticles.com/?Selling-Nitro ... ?&id=38142)

Here are a few other benefits of using Nitrogen in tires:

[1] Nitrogen is denser than Oxygen: This means the larger molecules escape less easily from tires resulting in a more gradual loss of pressure over time. According to the Michelin Tire Manual, a tire that is inflated with Nitrogen loses its pressure 3 times slower than if it were inflated with air.

[2] Nitrogen is moisture free: Pure Nitrogen inflated tires experience less steel belt and rubber degradation. Nitrogen use also reduces valve and wheel corrosion.

[3] Nitrogen provides longer tire life: Nitrogen inflated tire run cooler and require less maintenance according to the Goodyear application bulletin.

[4] Nitrogen is non-flammable: Nitrogen technology has been used in aircraft, military and race car technology for over thirty years.

So in conclusion Nitrogen filled tyres run cooler than air filled tyres even though the difference in temperature is marginal.

[louiserd]

Actually it does, this is simply because Nitrogen disperses heat quicker than air. Meaning tyres inflated with air run hotter than those inflated with nitrogen.

Nitrogen In Tires (extract from https://ezinearticles.com/?Selling-Nitro ... ?&id=38142)

Here are a few other benefits of using Nitrogen in tires:

[1] Nitrogen is denser than Oxygen: This means the larger molecules escape less easily from tires resulting in a more gradual loss of pressure over time. According to the Michelin Tire Manual, a tire that is inflated with Nitrogen loses its pressure 3 times slower than if it were inflated with air.

[2] Nitrogen is moisture free: Pure Nitrogen inflated tires experience less steel belt and rubber degradation. Nitrogen use also reduces valve and wheel corrosion.

[3] Nitrogen provides longer tire life: Nitrogen inflated tire run cooler and require less maintenance according to the Goodyear application bulletin.

[4] Nitrogen is non-flammable: Nitrogen technology has been used in aircraft, military and race car technology for over thirty years.

So in conclusion Nitrogen filled tyres run cooler than air filled tyres even though the difference in temperature is marginal.

Don't believe it - I can't believe how poor the science is behind this, it's absolute tosh.

1] It's actually half the amount of time, under proper tests. Bloody useless as you have to refill the tyre each time with N2, so just means you never both rather than checking once a month and putting in air. N2 is only very slightly denser than air, we're talking under 2 bar here, it's not a real difference.

2] N2 is not moisture free, it would be if it was pure, as would "air" with a dryer in the pump, which industrial pumps have. Absolutely no steel belt or rubber degradation until at least 10 years, in which case plenty of water would have got into the rubber anyway.

3] No it doesn't, the only basis for this is that a correctly inflated tyre lasts longer than a poorly inflated tyre, N2 will keep inflated for slightly longer than never checked tyres, if both are checked, there is no difference. Of course if you input N2, you are less likely to ever top it up, thus the result is reversed.

4] And so what? There are reasons in each cases, car tyres do not need them at all. In industry, 99% N2 will be used which is very dry, this prevents water being knocked out as ice in a cold plane at high altitude, preventing damage to the tyres on landing, it also means less air in the event of a plane explosion. On race cars, tyres get very hot, rubber oxidation can occur, but we're not talking at a proper rate, N2 is used however as it is the cheapest form of a pure gas which can be used very accurately.

It's tosh because in real life, the ONLY benefit is that tyres lose pressure at a very slightly lower rate, but reality makes this a disadvantage since nobody is going to keep paying £6 to get it refilled, thus tyres will be low on pressure, not correctly pressurised.

It doesn't matter that "N2 dissipates heat better" - the heat loss doesn't work like that. I don't know if N2 conducts better than air to the rubber or not (doubtful if it is a measurable difference) but I do know that it is not the real cause to heat loss. I have also read today that electric cars have zero emissions and H2 fuel cell cars have zero emissions, forgetting how both are generated and how both cars have to be manufacturer. I also read similar about biofuels yet life cycles show it to be hugely damaging to the world. The media needs to get some genuine understanding or shut up.

If you look at any actual chemical engineers or physical chemists on the matter, they will tell you what utter rubbish it is. Not ezine articles or something. They use kerosene is plane engines, it doesn't mean cars should, race cars use harnesses, doesn't mean road cars should, they have removal steering wheels in F1, doesn't mean road cars should.

Honestly, look up proper work on it and not what people have copied from companies trying to sell a product. The ONLY benefit I have given and it is a disadvantage in the real world.

It's yet another example of people trying to apply completely different situations to a different reality - in this case to make money.

[snowy]

ok now dont get TOO excited.....