Injection Fault & STOP 1.5 DCI

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Stevie67
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Re: Injection Fault & STOP 1.5 DCI

Postby Stevie67 » Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:03 am

Hi,
I am new to this forum and to Meganes.
A friend found an 2004 two door 1.5 DCI with 115k on the clock on ebay for cheap, spares or repairs.
The seller described the car as having an injector fault, since we both work on cars a lot we thought that this car would be a bargain.
I have always said to people, a good advert for a car, is if I have never had to fix one, and I have never even sat in a Megane before.
With the cheap tax and good fuel economy we thought it would make a good replacement for my wife's tired old focus.
Having read this forum now, I don't know if buying the car was such a good idea.
Anyway, we dragged the car to my house yesturday, today we had another car to finish working on for its Mot, so had very little time to look at the Megane, what we do know is that it is displaying "Injector Fault" and "Stop" on the dashboard and the engine won't even turn over, the battery is new and charged. The seller told us that a garage had changed a pressure sensor and that it had not fixed the fault.
On opening the bonnet I first noticed that there was an electrical plug just floating aimlessly about in front of the engine, it isn't that uncommon to see loose plugs, as some manufactures use the same wiring loom for different models and sometimes all the plugs are not used, but this plug looked too clean at the business end, it looked like it had been plugged in recently, but there was nothing to plug it into. After a quick look we discovered that there was a high pressure fuel sensor missing from the fuel rail/spider.
I have read the horror stories above and on other websites and refuse to spend hundreds of pounds on a 12 year old car, fortunately we don't have to pay for labour and I will be using mostly second hand parts from our local breaker. The other thing is that there is no hurry to get the car running, since nobody is stuck without transport, at the moment we are looking at this as a challenging project.
I have read that a good place to start is testing the glow plugs, so using a multi meter I found battery voltage at three of the four plugs, no. 3 (assuming pot 1 is at the timing belt end) was giving no reading at all, it is dead.
A trip to the breakers in the morning will hopefully earn us a high pressure sensor and a glow plug. I know there will be folk out there that will be horrified that I should even suggest buying these items second hand, but I shall take my multi meter with me and test the parts in the breakers yard before paying for them. I refuse to spend much money at least until we hear the engine turn over, it could have a hole in a piston for all I know, in which case we will probably sell the car to my friendly breaker.
I know this tread is nearly eight years old, but there are still a lot of these cars on the road, and there will be a few that could develop the same problem.
So I will use this forum as a sort of blog, following our progress. Hopefully we can provide cheap fixes to keep the pennies out of the dealerships pockets, since my research has found that they don't really seem to have much idea about there own cars.
Steve.

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Re: Injection Fault & STOP 1.5 DCI

Postby Stevie67 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:28 am

Today we went to the breakers and bought a few glow plugs (all tested good)and a few fuel pressure sensors which can not be tested in the breakers yard, we picked up a few in case one was bad. The total for the sensors and the plugs was £5.
We fitted the sensor and immediately the Megane was able to turn over. This is a vast improvement and raised spirits, however the engine still does not start. I cracked open the fuel lines at the injectors one at a time whilst the engine was cranking, I got fuel at all injectors. Any air bubbles that were in the clear pipes have disappeared. So I think £5 pounds well spent, we know know that there is no major damage inside the engine as it obvious that all cylinders have compression. I don't have a diesel compression tester, so I cant get any readings but the engine sounds and looks normal for diesel engine cranking. Also having fuel appear at the injectors would suggest that the fuel pump hasn't disintegrated internally, it could still be bad but I hope to prove otherwise tomorrow. I listened to the injectors while the engine was cranking with a stethoscope, I was hoping to hear them clicking, alas not.
I tried connecting a voltmeter to the injector plugs, hoping to find battery voltage momentarily appearing as the injector was meant to be triggered, again nothing. I am only using a cheap £5 Tandy digital voltmeter, it is possible that the voltage is there but the meter is too slow to react, so I tried connecting a small 12v test bulb to the injector plug, still nothing.
So it would appear that the injectors are not getting a signal. The next logical step was to find and check the injector fuse. I have read that the fuse box under the bonnet is prone to getting moisture damage, so while checking the fuse, we whipped the fuse box out and examined it for moisture and dry solder joints, all is well in there, the fuse is good and the box is clean and dry. When we were putting the battery back in after refitting the fuse box, it occurred to me that the guy we bought the car from had said he had fitted a new battery, could the immobiliser (if it has one) be stopping power from going to the injectors.
Does anybody know if the engine can be cranked if the immobiliser is activated and does it shut down power to the injectors?
Over the next few days, I will spend as much time as I can to progress, It doesn't help that it starts getting dark at about 3:30 and the car is outside.
I want to check that all the fuel associated sensors are giving correct or at least logical readings, I will do this with my multi meter at the plugs that plug into the injector computer as this will test the wiring loom as well. I am hoping for good readings at the fuel pressure sensor, as I think this should show if the fuel pump is good. I also want to test the injectors, I will connect one injector at a time to its fuel line, but with the injector removed from the engine, then while the engine is cranking I will apply battery voltage to the injector though a switch and an injector plug that a scrap car kindly donated today. I should see a fine mist each time I push the switch, proving both the injector and the pump are at least operational. Unfortunately I have no way of reading the codes if there are any, if we can get the engine to start, then we will buy the appropriate reader/software and deal with the codes afterwards, after all, they are there to help but in my experience most faults can be resolved with out a reader just an understanding of how all the components in the system operate. When I learnt about engines they didn't have computers, so I am approaching this project the old skool way.
If at any point during my ranting anyone spots that I might be barking up the wrong tree, please tell me.
Steve.
I almost forgot to mention that the dashboard no longer has "injector fault" and stop, but now we have a "service" light on.

AlexB
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Re: Injection Fault & STOP 1.5 DCI

Postby AlexB » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:25 pm

Hi Steve,

Regarding barking at trees, there can be two such trees. First, the injectors in some, if not all 1.5dci are piezoelectric, which means high voltage and no direct current. I can't remember which engine uses which system, but this is all in the factory manuals in the sticky thread. I would imagine that short circuiting the injector wires could be bad for the ECU... These injectors are checked by measuring the return fuel flow from them. Second, the ECU may not be sending pulses to the injectors if the TDC or camshaft senors are not working. Have you checked those?
Last edited by AlexB on Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Injection Fault & STOP 1.5 DCI

Postby AlexB » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:29 pm

Renault and French in general count the cylinders starting with the gearbox side.
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Stevie67
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Re: Injection Fault & STOP 1.5 DCI

Postby Stevie67 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:41 pm

Hi Alex, thanks for your reply, I did read somewhere that cylinder 1 is at the gearbox side. I did work out that my crank sensor was good, I was getting about 200 rmp on the rev counter, so the injection computer appeared to be alive, we figured this out also by the existence of a 5 volt feed to the high pressure sensor. we also noticed a very slight rise in voltage on the signal wire from the high pressure sensor.A you tube video showed me a guy connecting an injector straight to the battery to test it, so we pulled no.1 injector out, wiggled the high pressure pipe to allow us to reconnect the injector but pointing away from the engine. First we cranked the engine with the hanging out no.1 injector plugged into its own plug from the computer, with no result, then I connected my home made ( by extending the wires on the injector plug from the breakers) adaptor to the injector and the car battery, very briefly, no spray was seen but a distinctive click form the solenoid inside the injector. My friend asked if there was a lift pump in the fuel tank, I had to admit, from my internet research, that there appeared to by confusion over this, some folk suggest that there is a pump in the tank and others say not. A quick look under the back seat revealed the top of the sender unit, it has a 4 track plug, with 2 fine (signal) wires and 2 heavier wires. We both had listened for a pump when the ignition had been on and heard nothing. This looks like there is a server possibility that there was a pump in the tank and that it was not operating. This lead us to think that if there was no fuel pressure coming from the tank to the high pressure pump, then the high pressure pump obviously couldn't provide high enough pressure to overcome the springs at the bottom of the injectors. Things were looking promising, surly my breaker would take no more than a tenner for a sender/pump unit. So out comes the sender/pump unit, mmmmmm, no pump, the 4 wires were a red herring, on the inside of the sender only 2 wires appeared. Renault obviously use the same tank and sender setup for petrol cars, and they do have a pump in the tank, I think. Then, I just by chance peered into the tank, thinking "I wonder how much fuel came with the car", and all became perfectly clear, the entire bottom of the tank is covered in metal filings. As you can imagine we were both a little scunnered, it looked like someone had been panning for gold, and had hit the jackpot.
So, off comes the high pressure pump, we knew it was faulty, so an autopsy was in order. There are videos on you tube of guys opening these pumps up and not really finding the source of these metal filings. We opened the pump up and examined it in not very close detail, it was soon obvious that the high pressure rollers were no longer round, they had not been rolling for some time. On further investigation we found ware marks, enough to cause a metal paste on the sides of the low pressure vanes. The conclusion is that, the slight ware (paste) got into the high pressure rollers and stopped them from turning, I recon in virtually no time at all the high pressure side self destructed. It would not surprise me if the car had run out of fuel, been filled from a Jerry can then the car was cracked over, rather than priming the pump.
With second hand pumps available online from £50, we are going to the breakers again probably tomorrow. I am fussy, I want a good pump. I intend to firstly find a car with an intact fuel system on it, it doesn't have to be a Megane, other cars are available with these pumps, it just needs to come from a 1.5 DCI engine. When I find the right car I want to look in the fuel tank first, if it has filings in it we move to the next car. I am sure the breaker will be happy with "if it don't work it is coming back", can we find a good one, lets hope so, and cheaper than £50 if possible. I am guessing that the injector computer is seeing too low pressure to operate so will not fire the injectors. I am going to open up my injectors and look for signs of damage/metal filings, I am reasonably hopeful because there was no sign of filings in the filter on the fuel regulator, and I dont think the engine ran after the pump went bad. I my just be optimistic but there is no harm in trying. I am hoping to have a new pump in by the weekend, so I shall update you all on my progress.
Steve.

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Re: Injection Fault & STOP 1.5 DCI

Postby AlexB » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:02 am

It's bad luck, although still better than no resolution at all.

Renault workshop manual in such cases recommends replacement of the whole fuel system including the pipes and tank... Regarding the tank: it's an overkill, because of the fuel filter. As the filings managed to get into the fuel tank, the engine was running during the failure - it took some time. Then, it stopped either due to the loss of pressure or injector blockages. I would imagine that the metal shavings were coming out in a range of sizes, including those which are bad for the injectors.

I don't know how to clean the injectors... As you will be visiting the scrap yard anyway, it makes sense to get the fuel ramp with injector pipework to minimise the cleaning time. As a crazy idea... Look at the materials used in the fuel system and get a sample of the filings. Are they aluminium? Isn't it possible to find some kind of chemical that dissolves the filings while keeping the parts intact? Another option is to invest in new injectors...

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/ge ... num-91375/
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Stevie67
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Re: Injection Fault & STOP 1.5 DCI

Postby Stevie67 » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:15 am

Hi Alex,
The story we got from the seller was, the car was running fine, it just broke down at the side of the road, without warning. The seller's wife was driving, she phoned home, and the first thing the guy said was " have you run out of fuel?", I am not sure at what point, but I suspect he went to rescue his wife, armed with a 5 litre fuel can full of diesel, because, when we went to collect the car there was a green fuel can inside, we asked him if he was sure it had diesel in it, he reassured us that it did, the garage he bought the diesel from only had green cans. The can looked brand new, so his story is plausible. We know the car had not run out of fuel on that occasion because there is about 20 litres in the tank. I agree that the pump may have taken some time to fail, but we spent a couple of days basically cranking it over and over whilst we figured out what was going on, all this time we know that all the injectors were suffering from hydraulic lock due to the lack of signal from the computer, so I think that any filing would have been returned to the tank via the return from the pump. Yes, I also agree that it would make scene to get as much of the fuel system as we can from the breaker, but we are trying to at least get the engine running for as little pennies as possible, bearing in mind, we are still prepared to scrap the car. We managed to get a generic reader to pull the codes, I cant remember the exact numbers, but there were three, one for the dead glow plug, one for low fuel pressure an one do do with the cat. The first two we understand and are effectively dealt with once we get the next pump on. The cat one we hope will disappear if this new (to us) pump is good and was just thrown up because the mixture would have went lean just before the old pumps death. So, the fuel lines (all of them are going to be flushed out with clean diesel and then blown out with the air line a few times. When we were doing the pump autopsy the filings were magnetic, I haven't checked the yellow ones in the tank, but they may appear to be yellow because we are looking at them through 20 litres of diesel.The fuel filter will be replaced with a new one, not even me with my short arms and deep pockets is daft enough to put a second hand one or leave the existing one there. If the filings are magnetic, the tank will be cleaned in place, with the use of a magnet and an endoscope to check we get it all. Once the tank is clean and the pipes are clean we will flush the whole low pressure system a few times in such a way that we can examine the fuel coming out for cleanliness. The injectors are very simple to clean,we already know that they all click when a voltage is applied across them, so the solenoids are all good, I will only use brass or plastic tools, clean the outside of them first using diesel as a cleaning agent. Once we are convinced that they are clean, we will remove the end cap and examine the needle and needle seat for damage.Then we will check the spay pattern, by the way, I was trained as a diesel mechanic, albeit before electronic fuel injection was invented, but the injectors use the same principle to crack off and spray. If all is well, they will get flushed out with clean fuel and rebuilt. The main reason that I don't want to buy new or second hand injectors is that I am lead to believe they need individually programmed into the injection computer, I can't do that in house so if I reuse the originals I negate the need to. Once we get the engine running we will do a spill test to see how well they operate. If the filings are magnetic and we manage to get the car running and it looks like a viable replacement to my wife's focus, then I am going to secure a large neodymium magnet to the bottom of the tank, as far away from the pickup pipe as I can, also I want to fit a magnet to the common rail spider, this hopefully will protect the injectors in the future. I just means that ever so often we can look and see the condition of the pump without opening it. Obviously the end result wants to be to have an Mot, to do that it must pass it's emissions test, to do that we must get it running good, if it runs good and we keep a close eye on it, it should be good for anther hundred thousand miles, because with a good valley and a quick 'Tcut' the car is minted.
Steve.

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Re: Injection Fault & STOP 1.5 DCI

Postby AlexB » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:47 pm

Right... If the injectors can be cleaned, which I never attempted, then replacement of the pump and cleaning the rail plus any relevant pipes may work. The tank is isolated from the pump with the filter, so its cleanliness is not critical.

Regarding cleaning. Even a single tiny piece of shavings may cause harm if enters an injector or the pump. This is why it is suggested to replace the parts if possible. Just see how it's going and decide - your experience might help.
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Re: Injection Fault & STOP 1.5 DCI

Postby Stevie67 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:23 am

I have now serviced the first injector, there was no sign of any debris inside, one of the spay holes in the nozzle was blocked with a carbon build up.I cleared the hole with a single strand of speaker wire with a 0.095mm diameter and checked that the others were totally clear. This injector is now rebuilt and waiting refitting. I will strip and clean the others over the next few days. We managed to find a pump (£50) that was still full of fuel and we know that the car was running when it arrived at the breakers. So hopefully once everything is clean and rebuilt we can get the car running. Once it is running, we can check all the injectors for performance. I agree Alex, the tank doesn't have to be immaculate, but we will clean it as well as we can, but Renault have to cover their own as and make money, so they would say "replace everything".
Steve.

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Re: Injection Fault & STOP 1.5 DCI

Postby AlexB » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:58 pm

Cool.
Just a thought... The pump could have been damaged by low-quality fuel or misfuelling. If the stuff in the tank looks like diesel, it may make sense to add to it some 2-stroke oil, just in case.
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Re: Injection Fault & STOP 1.5 DCI

Postby Stevie67 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:18 am

Hi Alex,
We are going to ditch the fuel in the tank, then flush a little through the system and ditch that, then we will connect the new pump to the system and install the high pressure side. I have read about people putting two stroke in the tank, does this not cause problems with the cat? Because two stroke does not get burnt in a two stroke engine, the vast majority is spat out the exhaust, I assume the same happens in a diesel engine, at the very least I would expect so see a smokey exhaust, not good at Mot time?
Steve.

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Re: Injection Fault & STOP 1.5 DCI

Postby drp » Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:54 am

stevie67,
Hi there, I have read most of this thread from its beginning, and reading your approach with intrigue and hope.
I have come to the conclusion that 'Injection Fault' flashing up on the dash can mean a multitude of problems, not all directed at the injectors. I have a similar problem with my 04 15dci Megane, and have these fault codes
DF049 Refrigerant pressure/temperature sensor - present - short circuit to ground (another problem, not relevant to this injection fault)
DF015 Main relay control circuit - intermittent - permanent low level
DF027 Cylinder 2 injector control - present - at minimum level
DF059 Misfire cyl.1 - intermittent - no additional information
I have (apparently) a good second hand, pump and set of injectors, with the ability to re-code them to the ecu, so, will be doing a few tests of my own over the next week or so, and hope some sort of conclusion may result from this !!!!
Thanks Dave.

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Re: Injection Fault & STOP 1.5 DCI

Postby Stevie67 » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:11 am

Hi Dave,
I agree with you that the 'Injection Fault' message is quite vague, anything from an open fuel cap to a sticky brake pedal switch,
Oh and there might be something wrong with the engine.....
I did a lot of work with the multi meter under the bonnet before coming to the conclusion the the pump was bad, at about the same time my friend found the high pressure fuel pump output pressure was low on his generic code reader. So if you have access to that readout, I would head there before instantly condemning the pump.
Not knowing the codes very well, I looked them up on the internet, and that just throws extra confusion into the mix.
But looking at the attached messages, could the short circuited sensor described in your DF049 code be connected to the injection computer and could it be pulling the 5 volt reference wire down, this it turn could cause the other three faults (permanent low level,at minimum level,intermittent )...just a thought. I had this problem on another car once, the temp sender on the rad (for the fans)went bad and pulled the reference wire down to about 2 volts. The car was behaving really strangely,when/if it started, pulling all the sensor leads off until the 5 volt returned was the only way I could find the fault.
The other matter, my sick Megane, we haven't had much time to work on the car, but the pump is on and so is the timing belt, the engine is still half hanging out held up with a trolley jack. I have however finished looking/cleaning up my injectors. Apart from a carbon blockage on one of the spray holes on injector number one, all the other spray holes were clear. The first three were immaculate inside with no sign of any metal particles, in the forth injector I found one metal filing, it measured 1.2mm long and 0.12mm in diameter, to be inside an injector that is HUGE. But luck would have it that this filing had got stuck in the fuel intake tube in the upper half of the injector, right along side the electromagnet, really quite convenient don't you think. The delicate part of the injector appears to be in excellent condition. So our next step is to get the timing covers and engine mounts fitted, then the injectors will go back in, they may not be perfect, but hopefully they are good enough to start the car, then we can investigate them further.
Steve.

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Re: Injection Fault & STOP 1.5 DCI

Postby quaker@eircom.net » Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:53 pm

Hello there

Might Read this discription of cause of HPP disintegrating:-


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhIfUxh0rHg

( and activate subtitles )


From watching the clip it seems the low pressure part of the HPP unit failed and this can cause the failure of the whole pump including the injectors.

I figure the low pressure pump part is responsible for getting diesel from the tank and pumping it towards the high pressure side of the HPP unit.
This man claims that by getting rid of the vanes in the LPP and blanking two holes ( associated with monitoring the low pressure from the LPP) and by putting in a petrol fuel pump into the tank, the engine can run normally. The petrol pump produces 4bar of immediate fuel pressure continuously and apparently the power supply is already in situ only to fuse it correctly.
Also by putting magnets as somebody said already said may not catch all metal fragments as some of these may be aluminium.
It seems this fellow toyed with the idea of putting a 4micron filter between the distribution manifold and the injectors but I cant understand that bit.
So for one who has not yet had these expensive problems can this be considered as a maintenance project.

Happy Christmas to everybody

rgds

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Re: Injection Fault & STOP 1.5 DCI

Postby Stevie67 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:04 am

Hi quaker,
I have just watched the video that you posted, and basically what the guy said is true, but if it is preventative maintenance you need then I don't think you need to go that far. First you need to look inside the fuel tank, if you find metal filings,(through the fuel they look gold in colour) and you need a reliable car, then might be a good idea to start looking for another car. If you don't find any filings then change you fuel filter at regular intervals ( make sure the fuel is bled of air afterwards) and always keep the fuel tank topped up with fuel from a busy service station, not a country back road petrol station that has had it's fuel lying in old rusty tanks full of condensation for months, go for fresh stuff, it is probably cheaper anyway.
I think that magnets should work, the filings won't be aluminium, all moving parts are high carbon steels.
And briefly, we have now rebuilt our Megane and after initially starting on three cylinders and now on all four, the engine sounds sweet, obviously we are all (wife included) very pleased. However, we have air in the feed and return low pressure pipes, before I am happy to let the engine warm up properly I wan't to find out where this air is coming from. I suspect the multiple connections on the return pipes from the injectors might be letting in air. I suppose it is possible that air was building up in these pipes before, is that what caused the old pump to die? That is the next thing to investigate.
Steve.
P.S. The service light is not lighting any more , I am not getting any messages on the dash and there are no codes, as yet.


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