timing, is it worth saving?

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gareyt
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Currently Drives:: Renault megane mk2 1.5dci dynamique
with a non starter Renault Megane mk2 1.5 authentique for fixing

timing, is it worth saving?

Postby gareyt » Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:25 pm

1.5dci 2004 5dr authentique
About 6 mths ago on the back of doing lots of smaller mechanical jobs I decided to sort my cam seal leak and at the same time do the crank seal, cam belt, water pump, oil and filter and replace coolant and aux drive belt.

My mate came over and helped get the cam seal off as I was having trouble because I didn't have the right tool. He being a former mechanic seemed to know what he was doing and as he got the seal out he put the new one in place whilst there. He went home and the next day I proceeded to finish it all off including doing the timing.

When I started it up it sounded great, I drove to work twice and it felt like a new car until on the way home it started to get a bit jerky. I suspected something so started looking around. There was a massive oil leak. Coming from the cam seal. On inspection it seemed the seal had a little nick in it.

In my haste I went to refit a new seal which requires stripping it all out. It gets complicated here. :conf I followed the book or atleast I think I did but when I restarted the car it was worse than ever. It sounded like a old diesel van. So I asked around and people said the timing must be out. So I did it again, and again, and again and now Ive done it atleast 10 times. Ive followed the instructions and got no where same awful noises. Anyhow somewhere along the line ive done something wrong and have had the large crankshaft pulley bolt come loose even though I always used a torque wrench. :banghead Ive even had injection fault come up

Now the timing is definitely out as I cant turn the crank more than a quarter turn in either direction after setting up the timing correctly. The car has had the following replaced in the last year;
brake pads all round
brake discs all round
both driveshafts
both droplinks
both track rods
both inner tie rods
both wishbone support arms
all front suspension assembley incl top mounts
all four tyres with nexen blu tyres
all filters, oil and coolant
both hand brake cables
windscreen
aerial
battery
and lots of little minor things like bulbs etc.

My question to those in the know is; is it possible to realign the timing, is it worth it considering there may be possible engine damage. Ive already spent large amounts on the car, what would this cost to fix. Is it worth it?

freelanderuk
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Re: timing, is it worth saving?

Postby freelanderuk » Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:03 pm

If the timing was out and you can not turn the engine one full revolution the pistons are hitting the valves ,and it's very posible you will have caused damage to the valves :(
Drive it like you stole it

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triumph2.5man
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Megane 3 1.5dci 2009 832 engine (family car)

Re: timing, is it worth saving?

Postby triumph2.5man » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:45 pm

Surely you must have used the timing pins when fitting the new cam belt - the one on the crank at TDC and the one on the camshaft sprocket? Getting the belt tension right can be tricky and it is possible that the belt slipped a tooth or two. I have known it happen, luckily with no damage to the engine. Did the belt break? Usually does when piston crowns strike the valves. Set the crank at TDC (if you can) and attempt to line up the cam sprocket ie try to start again.
and the best of luck.....mate!
Reading the list of jobs you have done on your car, you have certainly been unlucky. Our car has played up repeatedly but nothing like yours!
Mike

gareyt
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Currently Drives:: Renault megane mk2 1.5dci dynamique
with a non starter Renault Megane mk2 1.5 authentique for fixing

Re: timing, is it worth saving?

Postby gareyt » Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:40 pm

No doubt that damage has probably been done at some point. I ALWAYS used the timing pins and always got it aligned and before it all went horribly wrong and when I was able to start the engine after doing the cambelt the noise from the engine did seem as though it had slipped a tooth and this is the advise I was given hence why I repeatedly kept re doing the cam belt.

I think the real damage must have occurred when the Bolt that holds the crank shaft pulley came loose, I think this led to contact with the pistons in some capacity.

Im just a novice, I just follow the book and learn as I go.

Is it worth trying to fix it myself, or is it too big a job?????????????????

triumph2.5man
Advanced Driver
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:52 pm
Currently Drives:: Mondeo TDCI mk3 2002
Pug 307HDI90 1.6 (family car)
Megane II dynamique 1.5dci 722 engine 2003
Ford Galaxy 115bhp 2002 (family car)
Megane 3 1.5dci 2009 832 engine (family car)

Re: timing, is it worth saving?

Postby triumph2.5man » Thu Oct 15, 2015 6:49 pm

Garey if, as a novice, this was your first attempt at a cambelt change, you deserve a medal! Not the easiest of jobs in view of the lack of room at the front of the engine.
Having reread what you wrote, I confirm that the loose crank pulley bolt has caused the timing to slip. It seems to contradict the laws of mechanics not to have crank and cam pulleys keyed to the shafts and rely purely on friction. But many hundreds of thousands of cars have used this system for donkeys' years.
When your bolt came loose, the pulley would have slipped on the crank nose and the timing lost. It seems you suspected this. This could explain why your belt did not break.
What can you do about it? In view of all the work you have done on your car, it is worth saving.
When the pistons strike the valves, the pistons will get marked but usually they can be used again without problems. It is unlikely the conrods would be bent. The valves come off worst and get bent to the point they will stick in the guides.
You will need, at the very least, to remove the cylinder head and see what the damage is. With the help of your mechanic friend this should be well within your capability. With a bit of luck replacing a valve or two might see you back in action. Scrappies are full of Meganes now and replacement parts should be easy to obtain. (Whilst looking around my local scrappy only a day or two ago, I noted a 1.5dci with the cylinder head removed - probably the same reason).
Go to it!
Mike

gareyt
Learner Driver
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:08 pm
Currently Drives:: Renault megane mk2 1.5dci dynamique
with a non starter Renault Megane mk2 1.5 authentique for fixing

Re: timing, is it worth saving?

Postby gareyt » Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:25 am

Thanks Mike. I will give it a go this week as Im off work. Ive got the manual so I will just follow that.

You have given me hope.

Out of interest, why did the crankshaft bolt come loose. I did it up to torque as specified. Would it be true to say that those bolts should only really be loosened and tightened once or twice before they loose there tolerance. If that is true and not just something ive heard then I reckon that is why the bolt came loose.

petepete
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Re: timing, is it worth saving?

Postby petepete » Sat Oct 24, 2015 6:12 pm

next time you remove seals drill them and put a screw in to pull on or bang a screwdriver in and wedge it out if you feel confident..

unfortunately there is definitely a knack to fitting new ones as it is easy to trap the lip where you cant see it or it might not sit right on the wear marks from the old seal ... been there had problems and always spend time checking seals thoroughly as its time well spent.

I suppose your problems have stemmed from removing the crank and cam pulley to do the seals as with the tensioner slackened you can usually tempt the timing belt off and fit the new one ..

I ve done this myself and had tight engines after bearing changes, broken head bolt block fixing points etc etc.. and I would hazard a guess you didn't have torque wrench and used the brute force measurement I have done in the past..( the only way pulleys slip is because they are not torqued up right )

Not sure what damage you will have done, but you would certainly know if the pistons had hit the valves and bent them..( or to check for sticking you could position the pistons so you can push down on each valve in turn to see if it has full free movement as you move the cam around to get to the next one ) but lets assume they all appear to have free movement and you havnt had that contact with the engine running..

then, it should be relatively easy and if you can find TDC insert the pin and line everything else up fit the belt and re torque it and you can turn the engine by hand to check for contact before trying a start...

couple of things I note about slipping or broken timing belts... a 205 Peugeot diesel will break its cam in 3 specific places :twisted:
a lotus elise will fail well before change interval and bend its valves :twisted:


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