REPLACING STEERING RACK AXIAL BALL JOINT

[dougieCC]

Mike, I agree with Alex, you could buy it and sell it via paypal on here, where is tool availble from.

Alan

[triumph2.5man]

Thanks you guys. I did think about buying the tools (you get 'em from the Renault Parts Dept) but this would mean shelling out £110 apx for both and even if I got half that back from ebay (which I doubt) I would incur a loss of around £55. I didn't get the reputation of being a tight***e for nothing!!! No, much cheaper to remove the lower arm!
However, another problem arose as this saga continues!
Popped along today to see my new "friends" at the Renualt dealership to order the orange/yellow washer. Big shock, the washer is only available as part of an overhaul kit at £78 plus VAT! This consists of a new joint, the washer, rack gaiter and clips! The washer is not sold alone. The storeman (who told me the kit is a stock item and they replace quite a few - no surprise there then!), kindly fetched a kit and showed me the washer. Made of hard plastic, it is nothing like the one shown in the Renault manual, item 3. Rather larger than an old penny (remember them?), it has a series of what appear to be teeth or indentations. It also has a split in it. It fits on a shoulder next to the threaded part of the axial joint. The "teeth" do not seem to serve any purpose as they are inward facing (as opposed to outward facing.) ~There is no doubt that tightening the joint compresses the washer, so why the one on our car is free to rotate remains a mystery (unless of course the joint has come loose which could be nasty.)
The helpful storeman had a fudge around and found a kit that had been replaced under warranty and promptly donated its washer to my personal charity for no payment. Of course it has been used (but only briefly) and compressed but possession enabled me to study it in detail.
When I first started many, many moons ago, everything had to be repaired and all the parts were available. If say, you had to repair a distributor, all the parts were available from good old Joe Lucas. Shaft bushes, advance springs, bob weights etc. You name it! As the years rolled by, suddenly all these little parts were no longer available as it was uneconomical to stock them. Thus "exchange units B90" became the norm with a deposit on your old unit. Eventually even exchange units became hard to find. What we have now is merely a continuation of this policy. Renault seems to have taken it a step further to the point where you cannot buy just a clockspring for your Meg but have to shell out £150 for a whole column unit!
That's my beef over for today.....
Mike the ancient one

[AlexB]

Mike,

Could you post an image of this washer, please. It sounds odd - 80Nm, plastic, split...

The one which rotates on the faulty joint is also a puzzle. It is possible that the joint was cross-threaded on assembly and never reached the washer?

Regarding the tools. Is there any access from under the car or under the bonnet to hold the rack?

[dougieCC]

Would a tool like this be right for the job. https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Inner-Ti ... veQ5fTools

[AlexB]

This one seems to be more appropriate... Thanks for the link.

[dougieCC]

Alex, is that a pic of the laser tool, if so think there about £35 on ebay. It could be an option but dont know how the teeth could tighten without marking the new joint.

Alan

[AlexB]

This image is from the same link as yours. Yes, the teeth will mark the new part (who cares!), there is a danger of deformation due to its asymmetrical nature and it still does not solve the problem of the rack fixation... What about using a stretch of pipe or a some sheet metal plus an exhaust clump to grab the cylindrical part?

[triumph2.5man]

Hi guys, herewith a few thumbnails showing a close up of a new joint, the mysterious washer complete with split - they all have it (the round object is an old penny), the tool dir 1305, a close up of the "business end" showing the internal, floating roller bearing. It sits in the middle of a double ramp which forces the bearing against the nut depending on the direction of rotation. When not under pressure, the bearing relaxes to a mid-point and the tool can be removed.
Cheers, Mike the ancient one...

[onlydiesels]

i`ve asked the tool dealer whom occasions our workshop if he can supply me with a tool for this job,and he seems quite optimistic,so i need to provide him with a photo and he`ll take it from there.
i`ll post with any updates,but bear in mind he only visits once a week (tuesdays).

[triumph2.5man]

Hi again guys! This matter has been outstanding long enough. Time to take the bull by the horns. I did the job today!
My original question was "has anybody replaced this joint without the special tools?" Presumably nobody has (or has kept quiet about it!)
There has been a lot of discussion about the special tools and what can replace them. The answer came to me in the shape of a fiendish plumbing tool that I found in my plumbing box. I bought it for £4 or less from Aldi or Lidl last year, put it away and promptly forgot about it! Darned memory! I attach a photo of said wrench and the size of it can be gauged by the ratchet tool. Made of chrome vanadium it is described on the box as "handy specialist wrench for working in hard to access areas with teeth specially hardened...." Just the job! It really is bomb-proof and has terrific mechanical advantage plus good leverage on account of the length. The knurled screw is adjusted to increase the gripping power.

I explained before that access to the rack end from below is difficult as the wishbone is in the way (see photo). I turned the steering wheel on full lock and held it while the steering lock engaged (or the st/wheel tends to roll back. Every mm here helps.)
Working from below (pit) I was able to engage the wrench (which is quite narrow) on the ball joint with only a slight angle - and heaved. The joint came undone quite easily and those hardened teeth did not slip one bit! The new joint was soon fitted with Loctite and with minimum effort, tightened more than before. All reassembled and the toe-out adjusted using a crude but accurate track beam I bought over 40 years ago. I've had to widen it a bit over the years as a 1959 850 Mini is a bit narrower than a Meggy! Slightly...the darned thing clears my garage door with an inch to spare each side - with the mirrors folded back!
I decided to remove the joint without securing the rack bar in any way and the pinion escaped damage. This was a calculated risk but the joint was not as tight as I thought it might be.
The service manual shows spanner flats on the end of the rack bar. As you can see this rack bar has no flats and is round to the very end. Strange that.
That orange/yellow plastic washer/spacer continues to baffle me. I examined this one carefully before dismantling. It was not under any pressure at all and could be moved from side to side and rotated with one finger. The washer easily slips onto the rack bar, being only a little smaller.
My view is that the washer does nothing to stop the joint from coming undone. If it were compressed (which it is not), because of the split, it would simply ride up over the rack. I will not dwell on this aspect any longer since it is only of academic interest.

When I removed the road wheel I found grease all over my latex gloves. Oh no, the N/S CV joint retaining band had broken! (The other side broke last year!) How much grease has escaped? How much damage has been done? I refilled it with lithium CV grease, the same as I have for many other CV joints since FWD was invented. Renault CVs are no different to other marques and less complex than some. The real damage arises when the grease all escapes and water gets in....

Well that's about it!
What nasty little tricks will "big bum" play on me next?
Some of the problems I see outlined on here make my blood freeze. Quite often a resolution never appears. Some members raise a problem and are never heard from again. Dave and I (and others) are itching to know how these things pan out!! Come you on...

Mike

[davelowe]

There is something to be said about age and experience! Another bookmarked link to be printed off - Aldi / Lidl really do have some fantastic offers.

Nice one Mike.

[AlexB]

Well done, Mike, and thanks for the photographs.

Yes, you are right, all CV boot retaining bands in Meganes are bound to fail. Every owner should be recommended to put an additional band over the factory thing. I have both bands replaced...

[triumph2.5man]

Hi again guys! Thick as two short planks - me that is! After much subconscious thought the purpose of those plastic washers finally dawned on me (my EUREKA moment!) - they are bump stops!!!! As you go from full lock to full lock they prevent metal to metal contact as the axial ball joints disappear into the rack housing. This explains why they are not a tight fit in the joint. It also explains why the washer I removed was marked on BOTH sides (which had also baffled me). I'm easily baffled these days....collect dunce's hat and stand in the corner.
I would say that if you are replacing this joint with one of QH manufacture, you don't need to replace the washer. Make a note of which way round it fits. Get it wrong and the washer will break in two. I speak from experience...whoops!
This is my final word on this lengthy subject. Hopefully we are all now wiser....

Cheers all, Mike

[pw981]

hi guys,

First off, I got my first MOT advisory this february @ 119,000 miles (the previous three MOTs, all done at a Renault dealer passed with no advisories ) This MOT was done at the same dealer, and the advisory was for ... quote:

"Nearside front (inesteering arm has slight play) Drag link end ball joint has slight play [2.2.B1f]"

"Offside front (inesteering arm has slight play) Drag link end ball joint has slight play [2.2.B1f]"

In this thread/post is this axial ball joint the ball joint described in the above advisory?

Also please Google renault TC1366 - I had this nearside ball joint replaced at Renault during my service 2 months ago. Was charged for the part only, labour was free.. (Although the part was £30 ) What part is this?

I currently have a vary rare knocking noise from nsf suspension when driving over uneven roads (usually happens first thing in the morning for about half a mile). I went to ATS euromaster to get it checked out, and they have informed me that some inner ball joint which connects to the track rod end has slight play, causing the knocking noise - they THINK that the part itself is not replaceable on its own and a new steering rack may be needed. At present it won't fail an MOT.

With the above information, can anyone clarify what is going on!

I mainly want to know...

If Renault replaced the NSF Ball joint, "TC1366", why was the OSF not replaced? surely this should be just as worn?

Is TC1366 the MOT advisory item? Or the ATS euromaster diagnosed item? Or are all items the same?? (Renault being renault, when I asked which side the 'TC1366' was replaced on, they didn't seem 100% that it was the NSF, so there is a chance it could have been the OSF!!)

If this helps, I've had both track rod ends and lower arms replaced within the last 10,000miles (TRE's) and 30,000 miles (LA's) and tyre wear is currently even.

Many Thanks!